"Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they shall be granted you."
-Mark 11:24 NASB
That verse played a key role in changing the direction of my life. I know, I know, you gotta take the Bible as a whole, not just pick one or two, or even several, verses and try and make something from that, believe me, I know. But this verse had been giving me some trouble for awhile. Don't remember exactly when, or why, since I'd no doubt read it countless times before and never had a problem with it, but for some reason it started really sticking out to me and not making much sense. After all, how many times have you heard that Jesus 'says what he means, and means what he says?' I've heard it countless times, and it's usually said in a forceful voice and with an air of authority, like the speaker is a politician's right-hand man on the campaign trail-
'Candidate A says what he means and means what he says, and you can take that to the bank!'
They say it like he just speaks in an Everyman's language, plain and simple and direct, no way to misunderstand the words or the meaning behind them. So what to make of this verse, then? It's pretty plain and simple and direct. Ask, and you shall receive, right? Well, obviously he wasn't talking about anything and everything, like he's just some spiritual Sugar Daddy, waiting to hand out new cars and winning lottery tickets, right? Obviously. But I knew that. I didn't read the verse that way, because I knew better than to take things out of context, picking a verse here and there to support the things I wanted the Bible to say, like the so-called 'Name-it-claim-it' folks. I knew better than that. But I was still having trouble with it because what about the other stuff; the things that God probably does want for our lives, the things that Christians everywhere ask for in all sincerity in their prayers (whatever those things might be)? That's what I was having trouble with. Especially since over in Matthew 18:19 it says, 'Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.'
So what about that? He tells us in his plain and simple and direct language to ask. Just ask, and you shall recieve (or, 'it shall be done'). Either way, when taken at face value it simply isn't true. And remember, I'm not talking about asking for 'worldly things.' I'll get into some specific 'things' later, but for now just think about some of the things that you might pray for that maybe seem to be answered with a 'yes' and maybe they don't. But there is no 'maybe' in the verse. There's no 'no' in the verse. It's just 'ask, and you shall receive.' And it was really starting to bug me. I couldn't seem to figure it out. So, one night on a Wednesday- I had stayed home from church for some reason- I happened to be listening to the radio call-in program 'To Every Man An Answer' (similar to The Bible Answer Man, where you call in with questions about the Bible and Christianity) and decided to call those guys and ask them about it. So I asked them my question, making sure to note that I was ruling out any sort of 'name-it-claim-it' b.s. I just wanted an honest answer to the question of 'why?' Why does he say ask and you shall receive, and yet countless prayers go unanswered. All I remember the guy saying was that 'Jesus wasn't giving us carte blanche to ask for whatever we wanted, whenever we wanted it.' He said some other stuff besides that, but I think I stopped listening at that point. What a letdown. What a huge, huge letdown. I don't know exactly what I was looking for for an answer, but I was hoping for something with a little more substance than 'he's not giving us carte blanche to ask for whatever we want, whenever we want...' Of course he wasn't. Obviously he wasn't; I knew that. Tell me something I don't know. That was the purpose of the call- to maybe give me a little insight, help me see things differently, and maybe understand a little better. It might have been better if he'd just said, 'Y'know, I don't know, that verse really stumps me too.' I seem to recall them offering up 'I don't know' as an answer at times to other peoples' calls (not, however, for 'interpretation' issues). And that's fine- you don't know, just say so. I can appreciate that kind of honesty. But I really don't like attempted answers that really don't answer anything at all. This phone call was a very long time ago, and so my memory of all the details may be a little foggy, but I do recall him giving me that answer quite readily- no long pause, no 'hmmmm.... let me think...' And he (as I recall) sounded quite confident too; pretty sure of himself. I suppose part of that is just the radio business- you kind of have to be clear and confident and ready to go when it comes to a national call-in show. Voice is everything in radio. To be fair, when he was done 'answering' my question, he did ask me if that helped me, and I did say yes, even though it really didn't. I suppose I could've said no, and pressed for more. I'm not sure why I didn't. Maybe I realized deep down right then and there that it wouldn't matter. What else could he say, really? I'd spent enough time pondering it on my own, and he and his co-host offered up their thoughts, so what more could be said? Afterwards, I spent a lot of time thinking on that phone call and what they'd said, and how I'd felt about their answer.
And I came to this conclusion: 'Why should I listen to these clowns?'
I don't mean to say that they're just a joke, by calling them clowns, but that's what I felt at the time. And really, why should I listen to them when it comes to these types of questions? Why should I listen to them or any other 'expert?' This isn't rocket science we're talking about here. Hell, it's not even science. It's, 'what do you think it means?' It's not like I was trying to figure out Fermat's Last Theorem, or some other advanced math problem, where there is a hard-and-fast, right-or-wrong answer, as well as a method for finding it; it's not even like I was asking for relationship advice for my troubled marriage. Even that would be different because even though there are no absolute right-or-wrong answers in relationship advice because everyone's is different, a lot of people have experience that they can draw on, and offer useful advice. But this wasn't about anything like that; it was about, 'What do you think he meant?' So why should their opinions be any more valid than mine? Sure, they may have studied the Bible, and it's history, for many more years than I have, but the Bible doesn't change (for better or worse). The verses are exactly the same when he studies them as they are when I study them, so when I read the Bible with an open mind and an open heart and come away with a different take than him, or you, or pastor so-and-so, what makes anyone else more 'right' than me? My brother likes to say, 'There's only one way to interpret the Bible- the right way.' Ok, so what exactly is 'the right way,' and what if my interpretation is different than yours? If we have differing interpretations, and if they both can't be right (although both could be wrong) then how are we supposed to decide which one (if any) is the right one? I've heard Chuck Missler say that 'we use the Bible to interpret the Bible' (yeah, he's quite good at talking a lot of utter nonsense). My experience and my observation is that 'the other guy' is always wrong. Always.
Since even Christians can't agree with unanimity on everything the Bible says, how is it we're supposed to be able to know what this 'right' way is?
Here's what I think- anyone who believes that there's only one single 'right' way to interpret what the Bible is saying is deceiving themselves.
I'm sure I'll have a lot more to say on this later, but I just want to sum up by saying that that phone call was a turning point for me. It made me realize that when it comes to matters of faith, my thoughts and opinions and ideas are no less valid than anyone else's. It helped me learn how to think for myself. Never mind asking, 'What do you think about such-and-such?' It's 'What do I think?' Other peoples' thoughts and opinions are valid and can be helpful in forming my own, but the bottom line for me, especially when it comes to intangibles like,
'What do you suppose Jesus meant when he said...,'
the bottom line for me is that I can, and will, decide for myself.
Monday, July 27, 2009
Tuesday, July 21, 2009
Turning Points (I)
There's a book I have listed over in the sidebar called, 'Losing Faith In Faith,' by Dan Barker. You might recognize the name, as he was apparently a big name in evangelical Christianity in the late-60's and 70's, but that was before my time in the faith, so I'd never heard of him until after I left my own faith and found his book. It's a book that I highly recommend, to anyone. I've already read it twice, and am working on a third time. He's a lot more well-spoken than I am and says a lot of the things that I want to say, only better. His de-conversion process took place over a five year period, one that he describes as, 'painful.' I think my own took place over a period of about 2-3 years, and yes, it also was painful. Very much so. I imagine that it's similar to going through a difficult divorce, since, in a sense, that's kind of what it is. It also leaves us ex-believers in kind of an odd spot- people who've always been atheists tend to wonder how we could have ever believed in the first place, and old Christian friends (as well as other believers) well, they tend to have a whole laundry list of reasons why we no longer believe- everything from, 'we never did' to, 'we still do, we just don't want to own up to it and bow down to God.' It's really, really hard for anyone who hasn't gone through this to truly relate or understand. I don't expect you guys to be able to fully understand- simply because you haven't gone through this yourselves- but hopefully I can at least give you an idea. I did not just wake up one day and say, 'Enough of this crap, it's over.' Or, 'I'm tired of doing what God wants me to do, it's time to do what I want to do.'
I can't remember every single thing that led me to where I am now, entire conversations I've had with people, the way some people apparently can, but there's two main things that really stand out in my mind that really had an impact on me and my thought process, and still do to this day. These two things, I think more than anything else, led me to where I am today. Ironically, the first one was during a sort of bible study at church. It was actually some sort of class- I can't remember exactly what it was about, but the main church out in California (I want to avoid too many names, but I'm talking about K's church here, not the Nazarene church) they have some sort of bible college going on. And apparently, they offer the curriculum for sale, minus the college credit, at a reduced price to other member churches- the idea being that you could get the education of the classes without going for whatever degree was being offered. Good for folks who couldn't actually make it out there to attend, or who weren't interested in a degree, but still wanted the opportunity to be able to study under some really smart guys (being that they were college professors, and all). In the end though, as I remember it, it was basically just a bible study. They had several different courses available and one or another was picked out to start off with. I think they figured on meeting up once a week for 6-8 weeks or something like that, but I actually only ended up making it to, I think, two before I called it quits- I was living in Union at the time (at least I had a car by this point, so no more hitchhiking, or I wouldn't have been able to make it at all, since it was at night and I had to work the next day) and since I was already coming up on Sundays anyway, I really didn't have the extra time or gas money.
So here I am, in this 'class,' with maybe 5 or 6 other guys. I can't remember exactly what the subject was about, the 'nature of God' or some such thing, but that particular night we were going over something from Romans about how Jesus was 100% God, yet also 100% man (human) at the same time (sorry, I really can't be bothered to look up the exact verse(s). And everyone was tripping on it, like, 'How can this be? I don't get it, I just don't get it!' There was a lot of discussion, a lot of going back and forth, slapping of foreheads, and they were talking about how you could 'practically hear the fuses blowing' in their heads. And they totally relished it too! They seemed like they were having a really great time, not understanding. Me, I'm just sitting back taking it all in, watching, listening. That's just how I am; I'm not much of a talker. But it kept going on and on, they were stuck on that one passage, really making a big deal out of it, like they'd never read it before in their lives. And at one point, I just remember thinking something like, 'Why don't you just ask him to explain it to you, then? Why don't you just go to the Guy that wrote the book and ask Him?' (Not those exact words, of course, but that's the gist of it.) I didn't say that, of course, since that's not how I am; that's also not 'how things work'- you don't just pull up a chair and invite Jesus to join the discussion you're having about him. So I just kept on listening and watching, and I don't remember thinking too much about it afterwards. It really didn't seem like that big a deal at the time. I'm not sure when it did become a big deal, but at some point, it did.
I don't know why it never occurred to me before, or, if it did, why it never meant as much as it did then and does now. I don't know how other people can think about it and it doesn't seem to affect them like it did me. I guess it's all part of the 'mystery of God's ways,' as Dan Barker said in his book. Except that it's not, anymore. Not for me, anyway. Think about those words for a minute-
'Why don't you just ask him to explain it to you, then? Why don't you just go to the Guy that wrote the book and ask Him?'
To this day that is one of the biggest problems ever that I have with my old faith. Isn't one of the core teachings of Christianity that you can know God? Know him personally? Have a relationship with him? It's practically one of the foundations. Take that away, and you're basically back in the Old Testament where the average guy definitely can't talk to God directly, but instead has to go through a high priest
or Moses, or whoever. I remember hearing countless sermons railing against the Catholic church because of having to confess to the priests and all that- 'No,' they said. 'Jesus took all that away! You don't have to go through anyone anymore, you can go straight to the Lord himself (through Jesus)! Except that, really, you can't. Can you? I mean, that's what they say, but when it really comes down to it, it doesn't work that way. When it really comes down to it, those guys in that class were left to themselves, slapping their foreheads and talking about fuses blowing in their minds. Why not just ask God to explain it all, make it simple? Make it so we can understand? (No need to say it because I can hear it now, because I've heard it countless times before- 'But He has made it simple! He has made it so we can understand!') But there they were, asking themselves. Arguing and debating and going back and forth and back and forth, trying to figure it all out. There was no clear answer for them (not that they seemed to mind- 'All we know is that, yes, he's 100% God, and 100% man at the same time, but we don't know how or why or...' Can't explain it, we just know that it's true.'). I don't pay much attention anymore to theological discussions within the church, but I would imagine that people are still trying to figure out that idea, as well as countless others, just like they always have been, just like they always will be.
There was a post over on Unreasonable Faith recently, that I think sums it up perfectly. Just a photo, and I'm normally not too keen on these 'Demotivational' poster ripoffs, but I think this one is worth it-
It's always, always, always humans doing the talking. One of the commenters on that particular post had this to say, in response to a comment by someone else-
'You’re right… God could come to us in the form of a man… we’d probably kill him, but then he’d rise from the dead… oh wait… that all happened and people still don’t believe. God has given us every reason already to believe in him, even outside of Jesus, we see the existence of God in nature...'
But, by a really strange coincidence... that was a person who posted that comment! God may have been speaking through him (or he may not have been) but it was still a person doing the writing. Along those lines, think about how the internet has changed the volume of debate- before the internet, you had to to write books, or newsletters, or hold public debates, or whatever. Now, you've got countless- countless- blogs and newsgroups, forums and chatrooms, where all people do is debate one side or the other. People. Debating. About God. God's not doing the debating. The people are.
Us nonbelievers, sure, we have to speak up for ourselves, make our own case, because really, who else will? We don't have an Ultimate Authority who will speak for us. But have you ever really wondered what God's doing while all these countless debates are going on in his name? I picture him sitting on the edge of a chair, rooting for his favorite commenters on his favorite blogs/forums/chatrooms, pumping his fist in the air and saying, 'You tell him! You tell him!' I don't mean to sound flip or sarcastic, but really- from the Christian point of view, what is the point of it all? Why should anyone have to go to bat for God? Speak for him? Defend him? Can't he speak for himself? Or is it that old, 'He's speaking through his people' bit? Funny, though, how God always speaks through people, and not directly to people. Funny how he always uses their own voice, or their own pen, or their own word processor, to speak through them. Funny how he speaks through them, unless or until they're found to be telling lies, like Mike Warnke was, or until they're found to be a closet homosexual, like Ted Haggard is. Funny how God chooses to work that way, eh?
I remember seeing an interview not so long ago that Bill Maher did with Mike Huckabee, and he asked him something along those lines, about how God speaks to us. Huckabee answered pretty much the way he had to, the way everyone does when pressed on such matters- God speaks to our hearts, our souls, it's the 'still small voice,' it's the child's laughter, it's the quiet time by the stream, etc., etc., etc. Because whenever someone says that God actually speaks to him or her, like has a conversation with them or something, they are rightly looked on as nuts, even by Christians. God just doesn't work that way. (Of course he doesn't work that way. Why would he? It would certainly clear up a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding, wouldn't it?) So then what of all this talk about 'relationship' and knowing God personally and intimately? I still remember the whole, 'It's not religion, it's a relationship,' argument. Religion is all those other belief systems, the ones that don't include the God of the Bible (or do but add lots of man-made rules, like the Catholic church does); we're all about relationship, specifically one with Jesus. But what does that even mean if you can't actually talk with him? Ask him questions and expect real answers? With God, it's always a one-way conversation.
'You can know him personally,' they say. 'He can (and should) be your best friend,' but when you need real answers for real problems (including doubts about your faith) what you get is a 'still small voice;' one you can't even hear with your own ears because he 'doesn't work that way.' And even if you did hear a voice, who could you tell? Because even Christians look on that sort of thing with a great deal of skepticism. All you're really left with is prayer and talking to other believers, asking them what they think. Which leads me to turning point number 2. But that's for the next post. For now, I just want to say one last thing. Possibly, my tone here has come off a little strong; a little 'anti-God'. Some Christians reading this may think so, and vice versa, if there's any unbelievers reading this, they may think just the opposite. Let me be clear, this post, this blog, is not some sort of 'attack' on God, the idea of God, you, your faith, anyone's faith. A lot of Christians tend to look at any statement of unbelief as such-
I'm listing off reasons why I don't believe, so therefore it's an attack on everyone who does believe.
Not at all. Like I say in the 'About Me' section, this is just an '...online journal where I try and clear my mind of all the thoughts, doubts, questions, and other bullshit that has been building up...' And that is what all of these posts are- honest thoughts, doubts and questions that I've had now for over 10 years. And one thing I've learned over the years, is that for all peoples' talk about respecting truth and honesty, a lot of it is just that- talk. The truth hurts. A lot, sometimes. Everyone says they want the truth, and they don't seem to mind when other people get offended over hearing it, but when you start saying things like, 'How's this for honesty- I'm not a believer anymore. In fact, I can't believe anymore,' all of a sudden things are different and you find that maybe folks don't appreciate honesty as much as they'd like to think they do.
So this is just my place to be honest. I hope you'll understand.
I can't remember every single thing that led me to where I am now, entire conversations I've had with people, the way some people apparently can, but there's two main things that really stand out in my mind that really had an impact on me and my thought process, and still do to this day. These two things, I think more than anything else, led me to where I am today. Ironically, the first one was during a sort of bible study at church. It was actually some sort of class- I can't remember exactly what it was about, but the main church out in California (I want to avoid too many names, but I'm talking about K's church here, not the Nazarene church) they have some sort of bible college going on. And apparently, they offer the curriculum for sale, minus the college credit, at a reduced price to other member churches- the idea being that you could get the education of the classes without going for whatever degree was being offered. Good for folks who couldn't actually make it out there to attend, or who weren't interested in a degree, but still wanted the opportunity to be able to study under some really smart guys (being that they were college professors, and all). In the end though, as I remember it, it was basically just a bible study. They had several different courses available and one or another was picked out to start off with. I think they figured on meeting up once a week for 6-8 weeks or something like that, but I actually only ended up making it to, I think, two before I called it quits- I was living in Union at the time (at least I had a car by this point, so no more hitchhiking, or I wouldn't have been able to make it at all, since it was at night and I had to work the next day) and since I was already coming up on Sundays anyway, I really didn't have the extra time or gas money.
So here I am, in this 'class,' with maybe 5 or 6 other guys. I can't remember exactly what the subject was about, the 'nature of God' or some such thing, but that particular night we were going over something from Romans about how Jesus was 100% God, yet also 100% man (human) at the same time (sorry, I really can't be bothered to look up the exact verse(s). And everyone was tripping on it, like, 'How can this be? I don't get it, I just don't get it!' There was a lot of discussion, a lot of going back and forth, slapping of foreheads, and they were talking about how you could 'practically hear the fuses blowing' in their heads. And they totally relished it too! They seemed like they were having a really great time, not understanding. Me, I'm just sitting back taking it all in, watching, listening. That's just how I am; I'm not much of a talker. But it kept going on and on, they were stuck on that one passage, really making a big deal out of it, like they'd never read it before in their lives. And at one point, I just remember thinking something like, 'Why don't you just ask him to explain it to you, then? Why don't you just go to the Guy that wrote the book and ask Him?' (Not those exact words, of course, but that's the gist of it.) I didn't say that, of course, since that's not how I am; that's also not 'how things work'- you don't just pull up a chair and invite Jesus to join the discussion you're having about him. So I just kept on listening and watching, and I don't remember thinking too much about it afterwards. It really didn't seem like that big a deal at the time. I'm not sure when it did become a big deal, but at some point, it did.
I don't know why it never occurred to me before, or, if it did, why it never meant as much as it did then and does now. I don't know how other people can think about it and it doesn't seem to affect them like it did me. I guess it's all part of the 'mystery of God's ways,' as Dan Barker said in his book. Except that it's not, anymore. Not for me, anyway. Think about those words for a minute-
'Why don't you just ask him to explain it to you, then? Why don't you just go to the Guy that wrote the book and ask Him?'
To this day that is one of the biggest problems ever that I have with my old faith. Isn't one of the core teachings of Christianity that you can know God? Know him personally? Have a relationship with him? It's practically one of the foundations. Take that away, and you're basically back in the Old Testament where the average guy definitely can't talk to God directly, but instead has to go through a high priest
or Moses, or whoever. I remember hearing countless sermons railing against the Catholic church because of having to confess to the priests and all that- 'No,' they said. 'Jesus took all that away! You don't have to go through anyone anymore, you can go straight to the Lord himself (through Jesus)! Except that, really, you can't. Can you? I mean, that's what they say, but when it really comes down to it, it doesn't work that way. When it really comes down to it, those guys in that class were left to themselves, slapping their foreheads and talking about fuses blowing in their minds. Why not just ask God to explain it all, make it simple? Make it so we can understand? (No need to say it because I can hear it now, because I've heard it countless times before- 'But He has made it simple! He has made it so we can understand!') But there they were, asking themselves. Arguing and debating and going back and forth and back and forth, trying to figure it all out. There was no clear answer for them (not that they seemed to mind- 'All we know is that, yes, he's 100% God, and 100% man at the same time, but we don't know how or why or...' Can't explain it, we just know that it's true.'). I don't pay much attention anymore to theological discussions within the church, but I would imagine that people are still trying to figure out that idea, as well as countless others, just like they always have been, just like they always will be.
There was a post over on Unreasonable Faith recently, that I think sums it up perfectly. Just a photo, and I'm normally not too keen on these 'Demotivational' poster ripoffs, but I think this one is worth it-
It's always, always, always humans doing the talking. One of the commenters on that particular post had this to say, in response to a comment by someone else-
'You’re right… God could come to us in the form of a man… we’d probably kill him, but then he’d rise from the dead… oh wait… that all happened and people still don’t believe. God has given us every reason already to believe in him, even outside of Jesus, we see the existence of God in nature...'
But, by a really strange coincidence... that was a person who posted that comment! God may have been speaking through him (or he may not have been) but it was still a person doing the writing. Along those lines, think about how the internet has changed the volume of debate- before the internet, you had to to write books, or newsletters, or hold public debates, or whatever. Now, you've got countless- countless- blogs and newsgroups, forums and chatrooms, where all people do is debate one side or the other. People. Debating. About God. God's not doing the debating. The people are.
Us nonbelievers, sure, we have to speak up for ourselves, make our own case, because really, who else will? We don't have an Ultimate Authority who will speak for us. But have you ever really wondered what God's doing while all these countless debates are going on in his name? I picture him sitting on the edge of a chair, rooting for his favorite commenters on his favorite blogs/forums/chatrooms, pumping his fist in the air and saying, 'You tell him! You tell him!' I don't mean to sound flip or sarcastic, but really- from the Christian point of view, what is the point of it all? Why should anyone have to go to bat for God? Speak for him? Defend him? Can't he speak for himself? Or is it that old, 'He's speaking through his people' bit? Funny, though, how God always speaks through people, and not directly to people. Funny how he always uses their own voice, or their own pen, or their own word processor, to speak through them. Funny how he speaks through them, unless or until they're found to be telling lies, like Mike Warnke was, or until they're found to be a closet homosexual, like Ted Haggard is. Funny how God chooses to work that way, eh?
I remember seeing an interview not so long ago that Bill Maher did with Mike Huckabee, and he asked him something along those lines, about how God speaks to us. Huckabee answered pretty much the way he had to, the way everyone does when pressed on such matters- God speaks to our hearts, our souls, it's the 'still small voice,' it's the child's laughter, it's the quiet time by the stream, etc., etc., etc. Because whenever someone says that God actually speaks to him or her, like has a conversation with them or something, they are rightly looked on as nuts, even by Christians. God just doesn't work that way. (Of course he doesn't work that way. Why would he? It would certainly clear up a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding, wouldn't it?) So then what of all this talk about 'relationship' and knowing God personally and intimately? I still remember the whole, 'It's not religion, it's a relationship,' argument. Religion is all those other belief systems, the ones that don't include the God of the Bible (or do but add lots of man-made rules, like the Catholic church does); we're all about relationship, specifically one with Jesus. But what does that even mean if you can't actually talk with him? Ask him questions and expect real answers? With God, it's always a one-way conversation.
'You can know him personally,' they say. 'He can (and should) be your best friend,' but when you need real answers for real problems (including doubts about your faith) what you get is a 'still small voice;' one you can't even hear with your own ears because he 'doesn't work that way.' And even if you did hear a voice, who could you tell? Because even Christians look on that sort of thing with a great deal of skepticism. All you're really left with is prayer and talking to other believers, asking them what they think. Which leads me to turning point number 2. But that's for the next post. For now, I just want to say one last thing. Possibly, my tone here has come off a little strong; a little 'anti-God'. Some Christians reading this may think so, and vice versa, if there's any unbelievers reading this, they may think just the opposite. Let me be clear, this post, this blog, is not some sort of 'attack' on God, the idea of God, you, your faith, anyone's faith. A lot of Christians tend to look at any statement of unbelief as such-
I'm listing off reasons why I don't believe, so therefore it's an attack on everyone who does believe.
Not at all. Like I say in the 'About Me' section, this is just an '...online journal where I try and clear my mind of all the thoughts, doubts, questions, and other bullshit that has been building up...' And that is what all of these posts are- honest thoughts, doubts and questions that I've had now for over 10 years. And one thing I've learned over the years, is that for all peoples' talk about respecting truth and honesty, a lot of it is just that- talk. The truth hurts. A lot, sometimes. Everyone says they want the truth, and they don't seem to mind when other people get offended over hearing it, but when you start saying things like, 'How's this for honesty- I'm not a believer anymore. In fact, I can't believe anymore,' all of a sudden things are different and you find that maybe folks don't appreciate honesty as much as they'd like to think they do.
So this is just my place to be honest. I hope you'll understand.
Monday, June 22, 2009
So... what the hell happened to me? (III)
Sometime not long after I came out as an atheist to my brother, we were talking about it, and he mentioned to me that one of the members of our church thought I'd turned away for 'sexual reasons,' i.e. God forbids sexual immorality, I want to be sexually immoral and fool around with the ladies, so I basically convinced myself that there is no God- so now I can do as I please, yay! He never said who it was that said that, and I never asked, but I really hoped it was someone who maybe just didn't know me very well, and not someone I thought of as a friend, because I was pretty pissed about that and would have ended up having a whole lot less respect for that person than I did previously. I can't say we wouldn't have been friends anymore over that because we probably wouldn't have been anyway- most of my old friends from that church and I ended up parting ways shortly after it became clear that not only was I a godless heathen but probably would remain so. The reason I bring that up is because it falls into a category of 'reasons' that us ex-christians (as well as those who never were) hear all the time- that we just want to do what we want to do and don't want to have to answer to anyone but ourselves. We no longer believe because we want to smoke and drink and have all kinds of sex with all kinds of people, not just one and only after we're married. Yeah, we hear that kind of stuff a lot. It used to really, really bug me. Now I just find it slightly annoying, like a fly buzzing near you at a picnic, but not so close as to be worth your time trying to squash it. I have my own little theory on why that's such a popular excuse for losing/not having faith. Well, surely it's not 'my own' little theory, as I know other people think this too, but I'm going to express it slightly differently than I've heard it in the past. I think the reason people say such things about us is because it lets them off the hook- I lost my faith because I wanted to, see? Because I wanted to have sex before I got married. Or because I wanted to look at porno mags. Or because I was listening to the wrong music, or reading the wrong books, or hanging around with the 'wrong crowd,' or or or... It all comes down to that, doesn't it? I no longer believe because I was either doing something I shouldn't have been doing, or I wanted to be doing something that I shouldn't have been doing. This way, it's all my fault. This way, as long as they just keep being faithful and not do the things I did, as long as they try not to want to do them, as long as they 'do' the right things, and 'not do' the wrong things, then they won't lose their faith like I did. It's about the things you do, not whether an idea is true, or believable, or not; it's because 'I don't like the idea of an Ultimate Authority.' So it starts with little things here and there, then works its way up to bigger things, then next thing you know, I'm a full-blown, God-hating, Angry Atheist. 'I was tired of having to submit to his authority, so I managed to convince myself that he's not real, now I can do all the things I wasn't allowed to do before.' Sort of along those lines is another argument that I hear a lot, that kind of goes like, 'I know what's right,' or 'I know what's really true.' Which is to say that I really know in my heart that what I believed is really true, I'm just denying it for my own selfish reasons. Really. My question is, 'How stupid do these people think I am?' Seriously. How freaking stupid? Because what they're saying is that I really know that God is real and is going to come back for his faithful someday and unless I repent before it's too late, I'm going to end up in hell for all eternity. I really know that, yet I continue living as if I don't. A person would have to be beyond crazy to really believe that- know that- and yet pretend like he really doesn't. I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but I'm not that incredibly stupid either, that I'd try and pretend all that was a lie when I really knew deep down that it was true.
Ok, moving on, let me back up a little bit to the idea that I left God for 'sexual reasons'. Wrong on so many counts. For one thing, I didn't really mind the idea of having to wait until I was married. That's just the way it was, and had been, for me for so long, that I just took it for granted. No big deal. And I was never in many relationships, serious or otherwise, so it's not like I had temptation following me everywhere I went. And let's be honest here, if what I really wanted to do was fool around with the girls, I would have done what a whole lot of other believers have done and still do- I'd have gone ahead and done it- had an 'oops' moment, or 'messed up,' or 'stumbled,' or whatever else they call it nowadays, and then would have (honestly) felt bad about it afterwards and prayed about it and promise to never do it again. Until the next time. Seriously, how many honest-to-god, truly faithful Christians have you guys known over the years who've either gotten pregnant, or gotten someone pregnant? I've known a bunch. I'm sure you've known even more. It's not like it's a secret in the church; happens quite a bit. And it's not like the people who do it are not absolutely serious about their faith- I think most of them are. I sure was. Which is why I never got into trouble like that. Because I believed in what I said I believed in, enough so that I didn't do the things I wasn't supposed to do. It's also why I titled this series of posts the way I did- 'What the hell happened to me?' I wasn't trying to be funny with it. That's just how I look at it; my loss of faith- it's not something I 'chose to do'- it's something that happened to me. I was certainly not expecting it. I had other ideas. Godly ideas. Once I became a Christian, I never, ever imagined I would turn away completely. Couldn't imagine it. I just couldn't imagine not believing. And I didn't want to, either. Things were going pretty good for me towards the end- living with the Jesus People out in Chicago- I loved that time in my life! I still miss being there. Besides the living in Chicago part- such an awesome city- I was also meeting people from literally all over the world on a regular basis, two weeks vacation every year, Cornerstone Festival every year- sure, we had to work it, obviously, but depending on your job, it could be lots of fun. I remember being on garbage detail one year and having a total blast. And there was always plenty of time off to catch shows and do whatever. Like I'd give all that up, plus everything I honestly believed in, just so I could 'get away with' fooling around with the ladies. Please. During my time out there I knew two guys, regular, long-time members of the community, who left their wives for men, as well as one guy who cheated on his wife with a man. That guy ended up staying with the community- he wanted to work out his faith and they were willing to let him. His wife divorced him, of course, but she stayed there too! Slightly awkward, I'd imagine, but the point is that if all I really wanted to do was fool around, I'd have done it and somehow kept on with my faith. Other people have done it. But it's more than that. A lot more. But by now you're probably wondering when I'm just going to answer the damn question- 'what happened?' Truth is, there is no short answer, which is why I started this blog. But the shortest answer that I can give right now goes like this- I want to know what's true and what's not. Just like you, just like everyone. I don't want to believe something if it's not true, or if it's just not believable. Just like you, just like everyone else. So when I started having more and more questions and was getting fewer and fewer answers, especially good ones, I decided that I was going to go on a 'relentless pursuit of the truth' (sounds so good, doesn't it? So noble). That I was going to ask the hard questions and not take some bullshit answer; 'I don't know' could be acceptable, depending on the question, but not something that used twisted logic or forced reason, or even outright lies or misrepresentations of the facts (not that Christians have ever been guilty of that...) If I came to the conclusion that something I'd believed was wrong- that conclusion being based on brutal honesty, logic, reason, evidence, and a sincere desire to know what was really true- then I'd stop believing it. No matter what. And vice-versa. I didn't care about 'doing the things that I wanted to do;' I cared about what was really true. So I wasn't going to discard something that I'd believed in up to that point if I could find a satisfactory answer for it. I'd been having some issues with difficult verses in the Bible and even more issues with stupid reasons given for those verses, so one of the first things I decided to do at this point was to read the Bible from beginning to end- as if I'd never read it before in my life. No ideas about it, no preconceived notions of any kind; just read it as objectively as possible, as if I was an alien from another planet. Some might argue that that's not possible, that everyone has their biases. And it's true, everyone does have their biases, but I think being aware of those biases goes a long ways towards keeping them in check. Besides, having been a believer for ten years at that point (despite recent doubts) I'd say, if anything, my biases were for, not against, the Bible. But for or against, I still think it's possible to put aside bias and read any book or idea fairly objectively. So that's what I set out to do. And I know some (many) people will say that obviously, obviously I was not at all serious about my 'pursuit of the truth,' because God is truth, and since I turned away from him, it just proves, at the very least, that I wasn't looking very hard. Well, ok, just take a minute to think about that statement- 'God is truth, therefore...' See, that's part of the problem I was having. If you want to know whether something is true or not, you can't just start with the idea that it is true, and work your way back from there. (Never mind the fact that the statement 'God is truth' doesn't actually mean anything in particular.) A Muslim could just as easily swap out 'Allah' for 'God' and say that because a person rejects Allah, and instead chooses Yahweh, they were never really serious about knowing what's true and what's not, because if they were, they would have turned to Allah instead, because Allah is the one and only truth. I'm not just throwing out straw-man arguments here, I've actually heard these arguments put forth- both to me, and to others in my place- the idea that if we really cared about what was true we'd have 'come back to the Lord' because he is Truth personified; there is no truth apart from him. I think part of the problem is that, for many Christians, they just take it the wrong way when someone says or implies that they might be wrong- surely they're not wrong. I mean, they really care about what's true- they went on their own 'relentless pursuit of the truth,' and found it, so therefore everyone who disagrees is, by default, wrong. And obviously, if they're mistaken in some particular matter of faith, of course they'll change their mind about it and stand corrected- if in fact they are mistaken, which isn't very likely. But they know- really know- that what they believe is true. So it's the 'other guy' who's wrong. Or who 'doesn't care about what's really true.' Or just plain hates God. Etc, etc, etc. Always the other guy.
A long, kind of rambling post, I know. Let me try and sum things up a little.
1. Yes, I really, honestly did believe. 100% born-again, truly faithful.
2. Started having problems with my faith- honest questions and doubts that I wasn't getting any satisfactory answers for. Questions and doubts that have nothing whatsoever to do with my desires for female attention, and everything to do with whether what I used to believe is actually true or not.
3. Decided to re-examine Christianity as a whole, and found that I could no longer believe in it. Too many things just don't add up for me, some of which I'll talk about later.
4. I honestly and truly no longer believe. No, I don't 'know in my heart' that what I used to believe is really 'the truth'- that's why I'm an atheist.
Ok, moving on, let me back up a little bit to the idea that I left God for 'sexual reasons'. Wrong on so many counts. For one thing, I didn't really mind the idea of having to wait until I was married. That's just the way it was, and had been, for me for so long, that I just took it for granted. No big deal. And I was never in many relationships, serious or otherwise, so it's not like I had temptation following me everywhere I went. And let's be honest here, if what I really wanted to do was fool around with the girls, I would have done what a whole lot of other believers have done and still do- I'd have gone ahead and done it- had an 'oops' moment, or 'messed up,' or 'stumbled,' or whatever else they call it nowadays, and then would have (honestly) felt bad about it afterwards and prayed about it and promise to never do it again. Until the next time. Seriously, how many honest-to-god, truly faithful Christians have you guys known over the years who've either gotten pregnant, or gotten someone pregnant? I've known a bunch. I'm sure you've known even more. It's not like it's a secret in the church; happens quite a bit. And it's not like the people who do it are not absolutely serious about their faith- I think most of them are. I sure was. Which is why I never got into trouble like that. Because I believed in what I said I believed in, enough so that I didn't do the things I wasn't supposed to do. It's also why I titled this series of posts the way I did- 'What the hell happened to me?' I wasn't trying to be funny with it. That's just how I look at it; my loss of faith- it's not something I 'chose to do'- it's something that happened to me. I was certainly not expecting it. I had other ideas. Godly ideas. Once I became a Christian, I never, ever imagined I would turn away completely. Couldn't imagine it. I just couldn't imagine not believing. And I didn't want to, either. Things were going pretty good for me towards the end- living with the Jesus People out in Chicago- I loved that time in my life! I still miss being there. Besides the living in Chicago part- such an awesome city- I was also meeting people from literally all over the world on a regular basis, two weeks vacation every year, Cornerstone Festival every year- sure, we had to work it, obviously, but depending on your job, it could be lots of fun. I remember being on garbage detail one year and having a total blast. And there was always plenty of time off to catch shows and do whatever. Like I'd give all that up, plus everything I honestly believed in, just so I could 'get away with' fooling around with the ladies. Please. During my time out there I knew two guys, regular, long-time members of the community, who left their wives for men, as well as one guy who cheated on his wife with a man. That guy ended up staying with the community- he wanted to work out his faith and they were willing to let him. His wife divorced him, of course, but she stayed there too! Slightly awkward, I'd imagine, but the point is that if all I really wanted to do was fool around, I'd have done it and somehow kept on with my faith. Other people have done it. But it's more than that. A lot more. But by now you're probably wondering when I'm just going to answer the damn question- 'what happened?' Truth is, there is no short answer, which is why I started this blog. But the shortest answer that I can give right now goes like this- I want to know what's true and what's not. Just like you, just like everyone. I don't want to believe something if it's not true, or if it's just not believable. Just like you, just like everyone else. So when I started having more and more questions and was getting fewer and fewer answers, especially good ones, I decided that I was going to go on a 'relentless pursuit of the truth' (sounds so good, doesn't it? So noble). That I was going to ask the hard questions and not take some bullshit answer; 'I don't know' could be acceptable, depending on the question, but not something that used twisted logic or forced reason, or even outright lies or misrepresentations of the facts (not that Christians have ever been guilty of that...) If I came to the conclusion that something I'd believed was wrong- that conclusion being based on brutal honesty, logic, reason, evidence, and a sincere desire to know what was really true- then I'd stop believing it. No matter what. And vice-versa. I didn't care about 'doing the things that I wanted to do;' I cared about what was really true. So I wasn't going to discard something that I'd believed in up to that point if I could find a satisfactory answer for it. I'd been having some issues with difficult verses in the Bible and even more issues with stupid reasons given for those verses, so one of the first things I decided to do at this point was to read the Bible from beginning to end- as if I'd never read it before in my life. No ideas about it, no preconceived notions of any kind; just read it as objectively as possible, as if I was an alien from another planet. Some might argue that that's not possible, that everyone has their biases. And it's true, everyone does have their biases, but I think being aware of those biases goes a long ways towards keeping them in check. Besides, having been a believer for ten years at that point (despite recent doubts) I'd say, if anything, my biases were for, not against, the Bible. But for or against, I still think it's possible to put aside bias and read any book or idea fairly objectively. So that's what I set out to do. And I know some (many) people will say that obviously, obviously I was not at all serious about my 'pursuit of the truth,' because God is truth, and since I turned away from him, it just proves, at the very least, that I wasn't looking very hard. Well, ok, just take a minute to think about that statement- 'God is truth, therefore...' See, that's part of the problem I was having. If you want to know whether something is true or not, you can't just start with the idea that it is true, and work your way back from there. (Never mind the fact that the statement 'God is truth' doesn't actually mean anything in particular.) A Muslim could just as easily swap out 'Allah' for 'God' and say that because a person rejects Allah, and instead chooses Yahweh, they were never really serious about knowing what's true and what's not, because if they were, they would have turned to Allah instead, because Allah is the one and only truth. I'm not just throwing out straw-man arguments here, I've actually heard these arguments put forth- both to me, and to others in my place- the idea that if we really cared about what was true we'd have 'come back to the Lord' because he is Truth personified; there is no truth apart from him. I think part of the problem is that, for many Christians, they just take it the wrong way when someone says or implies that they might be wrong- surely they're not wrong. I mean, they really care about what's true- they went on their own 'relentless pursuit of the truth,' and found it, so therefore everyone who disagrees is, by default, wrong. And obviously, if they're mistaken in some particular matter of faith, of course they'll change their mind about it and stand corrected- if in fact they are mistaken, which isn't very likely. But they know- really know- that what they believe is true. So it's the 'other guy' who's wrong. Or who 'doesn't care about what's really true.' Or just plain hates God. Etc, etc, etc. Always the other guy.
A long, kind of rambling post, I know. Let me try and sum things up a little.
1. Yes, I really, honestly did believe. 100% born-again, truly faithful.
2. Started having problems with my faith- honest questions and doubts that I wasn't getting any satisfactory answers for. Questions and doubts that have nothing whatsoever to do with my desires for female attention, and everything to do with whether what I used to believe is actually true or not.
3. Decided to re-examine Christianity as a whole, and found that I could no longer believe in it. Too many things just don't add up for me, some of which I'll talk about later.
4. I honestly and truly no longer believe. No, I don't 'know in my heart' that what I used to believe is really 'the truth'- that's why I'm an atheist.
So... what the hell happened to me? (II)
I hardly know where to start.
So why don't I begin with the line I ended my last post with- "Reasons why I no longer believe the things I used to believe, and why I'll never again be able to." That last part is very important. My sister-in-law once told me that I'd "come back." I didn't have the heart to tell her that it wasn't going to happen. Not too long ago, I read a transcript of an interview with Pastor Rick Warren, who said about William Lobdell, "We'll get him back." Us ex-Christians hear that a lot, and I'm kind of surprised by it- on the one hand, a lot of believers know in their hearts that we'll never come back, and so don't bother with us anymore, but on the other hand, there's a lot of believers who are convinced that we'll someday "see the light" and come back to our old faith, come back to Jesus. I can't speak for anyone else (other than to say that for the vast majority of us, it's highly unlikely) but speaking for myself, I want you to know that I will never again be able to believe the way I used to. It's just not going to happen. And there are many, many people who will hear those words and just think (know) that it's because I'm a 'hard-hearted' atheist; that it's because my conscience has 'been seared as with a hot iron;' that it's because I 'hate God' and don't want to submit to him; or any number of things along those lines. I find those types of comments very frustrating and annoying. None of that is even remotely true (well, almost none- it is true that I'm an atheist). But I also want you to know that even if I did come back to a faith or belief in God, it still wouldn't matter. It wouldn't matter because I'd still be on the outs with the vast majority of the believers I used to be a part of; not just those specific individuals that I used to go to church with, but the entire branch of Christianity that I considered myself a part of. I'd be too liberal to be considered a 'real' Christian. The pastor of the church I used to go to (I'm just going to use 'K' from here on out any time he comes up) used to like to say, "There's 3 types of people in the world- those who are [Christians] those who ain't, and those who think they are, but ain't." And it always used to get lots of laughs from the congregation, but think about that statement for a minute- "...those who think they are, but ain't." What a bullshit thing to say. Blatant hypocrites aside, if you can have a whole segment of people who are living their lives as best they can according to the tenets of their faith and conscience, thinking that they're being faithful to Jesus and can call themselves Christians, but really are not Christians, then how can anyone really know for sure if they really are one or not? How can he be so damn sure that he's really one? And just who is it that gets to decide who is and who 'ain't'? Yeah, sure, Judgement Day and all that, the truth will be revealed and all the wolves in sheep's clothing will be exposed for who they really are, but we all know that here and now there's a lot of judging going on- you hang around with the wrong crowd, you go to the bar (or worse, the wrong church- read: UU or other 'liberal' church); maybe you smoke the wrong kind of plant (not that there's a 'right' kind for Christians to smoke, but tobacco is looked down on a whole lot less than weed- cigarette smokers generally don't have their faith called into question solely because of their cigarette smoking) or are too sympathetic to the gay community- you'll find yourself being labeled one of the ones who 'think they are, but ain't.' That would be me, if I were to come back to a belief in God. Are you familiar with Bishop John Shelby Spong? He's not very popular with conservative evangelicals, but I've read a few of his books and find him to be a breath of fresh air. He is probably the kind of Christian I would be, were I to start calling myself that again, except wait- is he really a Christian, or does he just think he's one, but will someday wind up in hell? I think I'm starting to get ahead of myself, though; I'll talk on this more later, but the thing is, my views on a lot of things have changed. I don't see things as black-and-white as I used to anymore. I can't help it; I can't just 'decide' to change how I see things any more than you can. And my views are a lot more liberal than they used to be, which puts me at odds with the branch of Christianity I once called myself a part of- conservative evangelicals. Anyway, to sum up- no I won't (can't) 'come back,' and even if I did, I'd be too liberal to be considered a 'real' Christian anyway, so it wouldn't matter.
So why don't I begin with the line I ended my last post with- "Reasons why I no longer believe the things I used to believe, and why I'll never again be able to." That last part is very important. My sister-in-law once told me that I'd "come back." I didn't have the heart to tell her that it wasn't going to happen. Not too long ago, I read a transcript of an interview with Pastor Rick Warren, who said about William Lobdell, "We'll get him back." Us ex-Christians hear that a lot, and I'm kind of surprised by it- on the one hand, a lot of believers know in their hearts that we'll never come back, and so don't bother with us anymore, but on the other hand, there's a lot of believers who are convinced that we'll someday "see the light" and come back to our old faith, come back to Jesus. I can't speak for anyone else (other than to say that for the vast majority of us, it's highly unlikely) but speaking for myself, I want you to know that I will never again be able to believe the way I used to. It's just not going to happen. And there are many, many people who will hear those words and just think (know) that it's because I'm a 'hard-hearted' atheist; that it's because my conscience has 'been seared as with a hot iron;' that it's because I 'hate God' and don't want to submit to him; or any number of things along those lines. I find those types of comments very frustrating and annoying. None of that is even remotely true (well, almost none- it is true that I'm an atheist). But I also want you to know that even if I did come back to a faith or belief in God, it still wouldn't matter. It wouldn't matter because I'd still be on the outs with the vast majority of the believers I used to be a part of; not just those specific individuals that I used to go to church with, but the entire branch of Christianity that I considered myself a part of. I'd be too liberal to be considered a 'real' Christian. The pastor of the church I used to go to (I'm just going to use 'K' from here on out any time he comes up) used to like to say, "There's 3 types of people in the world- those who are [Christians] those who ain't, and those who think they are, but ain't." And it always used to get lots of laughs from the congregation, but think about that statement for a minute- "...those who think they are, but ain't." What a bullshit thing to say. Blatant hypocrites aside, if you can have a whole segment of people who are living their lives as best they can according to the tenets of their faith and conscience, thinking that they're being faithful to Jesus and can call themselves Christians, but really are not Christians, then how can anyone really know for sure if they really are one or not? How can he be so damn sure that he's really one? And just who is it that gets to decide who is and who 'ain't'? Yeah, sure, Judgement Day and all that, the truth will be revealed and all the wolves in sheep's clothing will be exposed for who they really are, but we all know that here and now there's a lot of judging going on- you hang around with the wrong crowd, you go to the bar (or worse, the wrong church- read: UU or other 'liberal' church); maybe you smoke the wrong kind of plant (not that there's a 'right' kind for Christians to smoke, but tobacco is looked down on a whole lot less than weed- cigarette smokers generally don't have their faith called into question solely because of their cigarette smoking) or are too sympathetic to the gay community- you'll find yourself being labeled one of the ones who 'think they are, but ain't.' That would be me, if I were to come back to a belief in God. Are you familiar with Bishop John Shelby Spong? He's not very popular with conservative evangelicals, but I've read a few of his books and find him to be a breath of fresh air. He is probably the kind of Christian I would be, were I to start calling myself that again, except wait- is he really a Christian, or does he just think he's one, but will someday wind up in hell? I think I'm starting to get ahead of myself, though; I'll talk on this more later, but the thing is, my views on a lot of things have changed. I don't see things as black-and-white as I used to anymore. I can't help it; I can't just 'decide' to change how I see things any more than you can. And my views are a lot more liberal than they used to be, which puts me at odds with the branch of Christianity I once called myself a part of- conservative evangelicals. Anyway, to sum up- no I won't (can't) 'come back,' and even if I did, I'd be too liberal to be considered a 'real' Christian anyway, so it wouldn't matter.
Tuesday, June 9, 2009
So... what the hell happened to me? (I)
That's pretty much the big question, isn't it? Especially since I never actually told you myself. It's not that I didn't want to. But it's really hard to talk about. Really hard.
Y'know, I never really knew Clark all that well, but I'm sure if we got together we'd have a whole lot in common, a whole lot we could talk about. Chuck, I remember you saying that trying to talk to him about the Lord was like talking to a wall- he'd just clam up and not say a word. I can totally relate to that. I totally understand. I do the same thing. I rarely get asked about it anymore, but when I do I usually just say I don't want to talk about it, end of story. Judy, I told you a long time ago that I wanted to get together with you guys and try and tell you what happened, how I went from There to Here. And I really did want to, I really did. But I quickly realized that I just wasn't going to be able to do it. Besides just being so difficult to talk about, it's also hard to really put into words, to find the right words to say. Even if I could sit there and talk uninterrupted, without breaking down (not at all likely) there's no way I would be able to effectively communicate everything I wanted to say in one or two or even ten sittings. Because it wasn't an overnight process. It probably lasted a couple of years. Hard to say, really. Besides being a long time ago, I didn't exactly keep notes- "Ok, here's Doubt #1, I better jot it down for future reference..." Lots of Christians have doubts at one time or another; most get past them and keep on believing. So how do they do it, and why couldn't I? Or better yet, how is it that I was able to take what I believed and look at it with a more objective, skeptical eye (almost like the way that Christians everywhere look at every other belief system that's not theirs with a skeptical eye) decide that I could honestly no longer believe it, and move on? What the hell did happen to me? Did I ever really believe? (I hear that one a lot, and find it very irritating.) Of course I did. You guys know I did. But maybe you've heard lots of different things from lots of different people and over the years maybe you have asked yourself that very question at times. Maybe you've had a thousand other questions that you've been dying to ask. Of all the people from my past, I've been wanting to tell you guys more than anyone else. (Ben too, and of course, I did tell him- he was the first, and we had a bunch of conversations about it all afterwards, but now that I've had plenty of time to think about things and mature a little bit, I think I'll send him a link to this blog too. I'm sure I didn't explain things quite the way I really wanted to in those early days.)
Shortly after I realized that I wouldn't actually be able to explain things face to face, I thought I could maybe write it in a letter and mail it to you guys from wherever I happened to be living. That way I could take all the time I needed to write it; read it and reread it again months later and make any changes I wanted to, and then when I finally felt like I had said everything I needed/wanted to say, I could mail it out. That was about 10 years ago (told you I procrastinate a lot). So now with the internet being what it is today, I thought it'd be best just to put it down in this blog. Slightly less personal than a handwritten letter, I guess, but a lot more likely that it'll get done.
So this is my letter to you guys. I've been writing it in my head for the last 10 years or so. I'm writing it with only you in mind (and the kids, of course; no doubt they've wondered too) but feel free to share it with anyone who might remember me from those days who you think might have questions that could be answered here. As it is, despite the very personal nature of this, I'm not keeping it 'secret' from public view- I've told one or two select people about it (no one from my past, although that could possibly change) and I link back to it whenever I post on a related blog that I read. Going from Christian to Atheist is not an easy experience, and I think maybe it could be helpful for some people who may be finding themselves in that position.
No doubt there are plenty of people who might come across this blog- and I can think of many from my Christian days- who will just look at everything I say and rattle off a list of 'rebuttals,' reasons why 'I'm wrong,' reasons why I'm just full of it; honestly, those people can go pound sand, for all I care (which is partly why comments are closed). I'm not writing this for them, I'm not here to convert anyone to my way of thinking; everything I write here, I write only to you guys, as if I were speaking to you directly, telling you all the things I've wanted to tell you. My plan, my hope, with this is that I can maybe answer some of the questions that you've no doubt had. I'm not exactly sure that's even possible, but I'm going to try. You may end up with more questions than you had before, I don't know. You can feel free to ask anything you'd like after you read it, but I'm pretty sure I won't want to talk about it anymore- and I'm going to try and cover everything here so I won't have to. This isn't going to be some sort of 'time-line' history; I've read other ex-Christians' stories and they read like a short story- plot, detailed conversation, point A to point Z. Even if I could remember all that stuff, I doubt if I'd want to put it all down here like that. There were two big turning points that I want to tell you about, but other than that, most of what I'm going to put here is just a bunch of questions that I had then, and still have now, that I've not gotten any satisfactory answers for from God's people; questions, doubts, random wonderings. Reasons why I no longer believe the things I used to believe, and why I'll never again be able to.
Y'know, I never really knew Clark all that well, but I'm sure if we got together we'd have a whole lot in common, a whole lot we could talk about. Chuck, I remember you saying that trying to talk to him about the Lord was like talking to a wall- he'd just clam up and not say a word. I can totally relate to that. I totally understand. I do the same thing. I rarely get asked about it anymore, but when I do I usually just say I don't want to talk about it, end of story. Judy, I told you a long time ago that I wanted to get together with you guys and try and tell you what happened, how I went from There to Here. And I really did want to, I really did. But I quickly realized that I just wasn't going to be able to do it. Besides just being so difficult to talk about, it's also hard to really put into words, to find the right words to say. Even if I could sit there and talk uninterrupted, without breaking down (not at all likely) there's no way I would be able to effectively communicate everything I wanted to say in one or two or even ten sittings. Because it wasn't an overnight process. It probably lasted a couple of years. Hard to say, really. Besides being a long time ago, I didn't exactly keep notes- "Ok, here's Doubt #1, I better jot it down for future reference..." Lots of Christians have doubts at one time or another; most get past them and keep on believing. So how do they do it, and why couldn't I? Or better yet, how is it that I was able to take what I believed and look at it with a more objective, skeptical eye (almost like the way that Christians everywhere look at every other belief system that's not theirs with a skeptical eye) decide that I could honestly no longer believe it, and move on? What the hell did happen to me? Did I ever really believe? (I hear that one a lot, and find it very irritating.) Of course I did. You guys know I did. But maybe you've heard lots of different things from lots of different people and over the years maybe you have asked yourself that very question at times. Maybe you've had a thousand other questions that you've been dying to ask. Of all the people from my past, I've been wanting to tell you guys more than anyone else. (Ben too, and of course, I did tell him- he was the first, and we had a bunch of conversations about it all afterwards, but now that I've had plenty of time to think about things and mature a little bit, I think I'll send him a link to this blog too. I'm sure I didn't explain things quite the way I really wanted to in those early days.)
Shortly after I realized that I wouldn't actually be able to explain things face to face, I thought I could maybe write it in a letter and mail it to you guys from wherever I happened to be living. That way I could take all the time I needed to write it; read it and reread it again months later and make any changes I wanted to, and then when I finally felt like I had said everything I needed/wanted to say, I could mail it out. That was about 10 years ago (told you I procrastinate a lot). So now with the internet being what it is today, I thought it'd be best just to put it down in this blog. Slightly less personal than a handwritten letter, I guess, but a lot more likely that it'll get done.
So this is my letter to you guys. I've been writing it in my head for the last 10 years or so. I'm writing it with only you in mind (and the kids, of course; no doubt they've wondered too) but feel free to share it with anyone who might remember me from those days who you think might have questions that could be answered here. As it is, despite the very personal nature of this, I'm not keeping it 'secret' from public view- I've told one or two select people about it (no one from my past, although that could possibly change) and I link back to it whenever I post on a related blog that I read. Going from Christian to Atheist is not an easy experience, and I think maybe it could be helpful for some people who may be finding themselves in that position.
No doubt there are plenty of people who might come across this blog- and I can think of many from my Christian days- who will just look at everything I say and rattle off a list of 'rebuttals,' reasons why 'I'm wrong,' reasons why I'm just full of it; honestly, those people can go pound sand, for all I care (which is partly why comments are closed). I'm not writing this for them, I'm not here to convert anyone to my way of thinking; everything I write here, I write only to you guys, as if I were speaking to you directly, telling you all the things I've wanted to tell you. My plan, my hope, with this is that I can maybe answer some of the questions that you've no doubt had. I'm not exactly sure that's even possible, but I'm going to try. You may end up with more questions than you had before, I don't know. You can feel free to ask anything you'd like after you read it, but I'm pretty sure I won't want to talk about it anymore- and I'm going to try and cover everything here so I won't have to. This isn't going to be some sort of 'time-line' history; I've read other ex-Christians' stories and they read like a short story- plot, detailed conversation, point A to point Z. Even if I could remember all that stuff, I doubt if I'd want to put it all down here like that. There were two big turning points that I want to tell you about, but other than that, most of what I'm going to put here is just a bunch of questions that I had then, and still have now, that I've not gotten any satisfactory answers for from God's people; questions, doubts, random wonderings. Reasons why I no longer believe the things I used to believe, and why I'll never again be able to.
Tuesday, May 19, 2009
What is this?
This, this blog/journal thing, this '10 plus years', is, first and foremost, a letter; a letter to some dear old friends of mine. People I've known for over 20 years now, which is longer than I've known, and stayed friends with, anyone (excluding family). It's a letter to try and somehow explain what the hell happened to me; what happened to my faith. I used to be a true believer. A faithful, bible-believing, bible-memorizing, evangelical Christian. Now I'm an atheist. I've always wanted to try and explain to them how that all came about. I know they weren't exactly expecting it. Hell, I wasn't expecting it. They didn't even hear it directly from me, which I was glad for at the time. (It's really, really hard to come out as an atheist to your Christian friends and family when you've been a Christian yourself, especially if you've been one for many years.) For a very brief time, I wanted to try and sit down with them and explain everything. But I quickly realized that wasn't going to happen. Not because of anything that they would say or do, but because for one, I'm not what you'd call 'good with words'. There's no way I could effectively communicate all the things I wanted to say in person over a couple hours or so. Even over several meetings of a couple of hours. Even if they didn't ask a single question and just let me spill my guts the entire time. I'm just not that good at communicating things. So then I thought that I'd write them a letter (this was about 10 years ago, before blogs and the internet are what they are today). With a letter, I could take as much time as I wanted, and even wait a month or two after it was written and go back and read it and see how I felt and make any changes I felt were necessary, and then wait some more and then read it again and maybe finally mail it out. And I've been wanting to write that letter for about 10 years now (it's really hard to get started). So maybe this will be that letter. Maybe now, ten-plus years after losing my decade-long faith, I'll finally be able to tell my good friends the things I've been wanting to tell them, and explain why I'll never again be able to believe the things I used to. Or maybe not. My plan is to write it all down, say everything I've been wanting to say, and then at some point, send them a link to this place so they can read it. I'm pretty sure I'm going to write it, but as for letting them know about it, we'll see when the time comes.
The writing- that's the other part of what this blog is all about. It's been over ten years, and I can never seem to stop thinking about it all- the questions, the doubts, all that crap. I'm pretty sure it's like that for everyone who's gone through this sort of thing. So hopefully, just writing it all down somewhere will help me get it out of my head and maybe I'll stop thinking about it so much.
I can't imagine many people will find this blog worth reading, but then again, in the early days of my loss of faith, I would have. I would have loved to read stuff like this, and in fact did- I was on some Yahoo! group for ex-Christians (I'm pretty sure it no longer exists) that really helped me a lot. It was like therapy. So that's why I link to it when I post a comment on some other blogs that I read. Maybe someone is in the same situation I was in many years ago and might get something out of it; or not, who knows?
Here's what this blog is not: it's not a place where I try and change anyone's mind about anything. I've made my peace with life and death and the universe, with Knowing and not knowing; let others make theirs as they see fit. I'm not offering up arguments to try and refute Christians or convince anyone that what I believe is the right thing to believe. I don't give two shits about all that. There's a million other places on the web that cover all that and more. As I mentioned earlier, all this really is is a letter to some friends, about me; so if you're going to spend any time at all reading this, it's best to think of it in that light. And because it's mostly a letter to some friends and I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything (not even them) comments are closed. If you really, really feel the need to contact me about something, you can email me at: myowndamnpath@... (well, I'm not going to tell you where at exactly, but I'm sure you can guess. It's pretty easy to figure out. And if you're the owner of a blog I commented on, then you obviously already know). Keep in mind everything that I mentioned above, and also that I have a low tolerance for bullshit. Another way to contact me would be to comment back on whatever comment I made on whatever blog, which is probably how you heard about this in the first place.
A couple more things...
I'm not on any sort of timetable with this thing; new posts could be very infrequent and random. I have no idea how or when this will wrap up, but when I get to the point where I feel like it's my last post, you'll know. Also, things may seem a little jumbled at times, i.e. just random thoughts being posted randomly. It's just stuff I need to get out of my head. I'll probably go back and review it all at the end and and rearrange it better, and probably even delete some stuff along the way.
The writing- that's the other part of what this blog is all about. It's been over ten years, and I can never seem to stop thinking about it all- the questions, the doubts, all that crap. I'm pretty sure it's like that for everyone who's gone through this sort of thing. So hopefully, just writing it all down somewhere will help me get it out of my head and maybe I'll stop thinking about it so much.
I can't imagine many people will find this blog worth reading, but then again, in the early days of my loss of faith, I would have. I would have loved to read stuff like this, and in fact did- I was on some Yahoo! group for ex-Christians (I'm pretty sure it no longer exists) that really helped me a lot. It was like therapy. So that's why I link to it when I post a comment on some other blogs that I read. Maybe someone is in the same situation I was in many years ago and might get something out of it; or not, who knows?
Here's what this blog is not: it's not a place where I try and change anyone's mind about anything. I've made my peace with life and death and the universe, with Knowing and not knowing; let others make theirs as they see fit. I'm not offering up arguments to try and refute Christians or convince anyone that what I believe is the right thing to believe. I don't give two shits about all that. There's a million other places on the web that cover all that and more. As I mentioned earlier, all this really is is a letter to some friends, about me; so if you're going to spend any time at all reading this, it's best to think of it in that light. And because it's mostly a letter to some friends and I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything (not even them) comments are closed. If you really, really feel the need to contact me about something, you can email me at: myowndamnpath@... (well, I'm not going to tell you where at exactly, but I'm sure you can guess. It's pretty easy to figure out. And if you're the owner of a blog I commented on, then you obviously already know). Keep in mind everything that I mentioned above, and also that I have a low tolerance for bullshit. Another way to contact me would be to comment back on whatever comment I made on whatever blog, which is probably how you heard about this in the first place.
A couple more things...
I'm not on any sort of timetable with this thing; new posts could be very infrequent and random. I have no idea how or when this will wrap up, but when I get to the point where I feel like it's my last post, you'll know. Also, things may seem a little jumbled at times, i.e. just random thoughts being posted randomly. It's just stuff I need to get out of my head. I'll probably go back and review it all at the end and and rearrange it better, and probably even delete some stuff along the way.
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